Author Topic: Design a New Model  (Read 12797 times)

Clay

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Design a New Model
« on: May 07, 2019, 03:37:41 PM »
Lets say you were going to design a brand new two stroke motorcycle for the US market. What are some of the things that you would want?  By this I mean a motorcycle that was built for you. The goal would be that when you got the bike that you did not have to buy or replace one damn thing to ride or race it. Here's a list of things I hear constantly:
E-start with back up kick start
6 speed
adjustable power valve
map switch that works (like on the Sherco)
choose your own gear ratios
stainless/plated exhaust
good skid plate that covers the linkage
spark arrestor
strong stator
lights that work
suspension sprung for you
lithium battery
seat height options
handlebars and grips that you want
KTM wheels (because so many KTM riders have spares)
good chain guide
Good tires for your area
O-ring chain
auto clutch option from factory
choice of hd tubes, mousses or Tubliss
Different size fuel tanks, or quickfill
HD radiators with a fan?
Rad guards
Rear disc guard



One of the biggest decisions would be TPI type or carb and here is where I get confused. Guys tell me they don't want a bike without back up ks because they do long rides and then they tell me they like the idea of TPI. To me that's a contradiction. TPI has more electrical parts that can break and you can't get the bike to run with 10 kick starters if they break. So what about a bike that came with an Lectron or Smartcarb?

Now keep something in mind: If a company produced this bike the weight would be higher than the comparable brands because it COMES WITH MORE STUFF!  I know you would think that everyone would figure this out but they don't. How do you market this?


And while I'm discussing this for the US I don't mean to exclude my friends from other countries. You all can chime in too!
Clay Stuckey
Sherco Offroad  www.shercooffroad.com
email: clay@shercooffroad.com
cell: 615 347 6519
Tennessee, USA

jamracing

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Re: Design a New Model
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2019, 05:47:52 PM »
Take the 300 factory as a base model, and add the following:
-Spark arrestor
-Wrap around handguard option
-Tire/tube option - hard/mid/cheater options
-Better grab handle or add tug straps
-Decent skidplate. Linkage doesn't stick out like a sore thumb like in OB, so meh
-Carbon clutch cover guard
-Carbon pipe guard
-led head/tail lamps
-easier pull clutch...
-Tuning tool for ecu

That's about it...


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2017 300 SE-R

Ghostrider13

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Re: Design a New Model
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2019, 07:09:57 PM »
Since I usually throw a parts catalog into most of my bikes, I’ll play...
This is coming from a “New off-Road” guy.
Must Have:
-“Quality” skid plate
-rear disc guard
-lithium battery
-kick start
-Carb

Be nice to have:
-Tugger straps (Credit Jam Racing)
-Dual map switch
-spark arresstor
-flag style hand guards

Clay covered every dream scenario.👽

Ghost



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Brian in Colorado

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Re: Design a New Model
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2019, 07:55:46 PM »
I must say I like the way Beta has the Build Your Own Bike option, and I think it's great marketing. Sell more bikes and parts as well. If you entertained the idea you could sell more bikes, more aftermarket parts that you install for exchange for parts removed, and you would have more parts for resale and warranty.  You would also be able to help racers that you have a relationship with on removed parts. Who wouldn't like to pick up your new bike with all the goodies already installed and ready to roll!

Now a bike that has the good suspension parts, but lowered by 2 inches and progressive springs soft/medium stiff. A choice of 200 and 300 set up with Smart Carb which would work with the electric power valve. Set up for low medium torque and and well spaced gears especially 1,2,3. Then if you wanted to up the bikes performance you could sell kits to make it into a racing spec bike. Some people are waiting for a (quality parts) bike for trail riding! The great part is you could upgrade to make it just the way you would like it.
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400 EXC
Evergreen, CO-USA

Dangermouse

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Re: Design a New Model
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2019, 02:09:38 AM »
For me to be tempted off my 4t bikes - 
- It would have to have EFI with a user tune option.
(The 4t should have that already - Yamaha style)
- KYBs standard.
- Golden tyres standard
- Continue with the current Factory extras, solid rotors, anodised wheels, Lithium battery
- LED head lamp
- Over sized fr brake rotor
- Rear disc guard
- Radiator Braces
- Fly 3 way folding levers

* Make a kick starter a parts list option to stop the whining for those who want it, don't fit it for those who don't.

It seems it would be a pretty tall order making them much better than they already are!
2019 300 SEF Factory
2011 TE449
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Just an old quick trail rider having a go.
From Qld Australia 🌏

cesllc

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Re: Design a New Model
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2019, 04:39:11 AM »
Honestly I didn't do much to my Sherco.  I like the idea of coming sprung right for the rider, an option of wrap around hand guards, option of tire/tube, lithium battery, and an option of various guards/braces. Not sure how spark arrestor is possible without forcing the bike to meet EPA regs. Bikes here (U.S.) cannot be sold for closed course competition if they have more than 4 of the following: Seat, more than 10" suspension travel, more than 50cc, headlight (or other lights), spark arrestor, manufacturer warranty. The S/A is probably the easiest to leave off and allow the customer to add.

The Sherco was very easy to make street legal in Michigan.  The only thing that would have made it easier is if it already had a high/low headlight switch and wiring, and a horn button with leads already in the harness to plug and play a horn (and a good LED headlight).
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 04:42:41 AM by cesllc »
2017 300SE Six Days with racing plastic
2017 300SEF Six Days
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Clay

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Re: Design a New Model
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2019, 05:32:54 AM »
I should have said that this has nothing to do with Sherco. Sherco will never do the BYOB thing. And this would be built here in the US so the import thing doesn't matter. This is a clean sheet, start from scratch thing.
It won't meet street legal emission requirements but a high/low beam thing may be possible and maybe a horn button to "let other riders on the trail know of your presence!"
(When I took driver's ed my a million years ago my teacher was Coach Archie McRae. He used to say "The horn be for warning other motorists of your presence! Don't be driving down the street going Boop! Boop! Hey Mama or Boop! Boop! Hey Daddy!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D)
Clay Stuckey
Sherco Offroad  www.shercooffroad.com
email: clay@shercooffroad.com
cell: 615 347 6519
Tennessee, USA

cesllc

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Re: Design a New Model
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2019, 05:56:32 AM »
I should have said that this has nothing to do with Sherco. Sherco will never do the BYOB thing. And this would be built here in the US so the import thing doesn't matter. This is a clean sheet, start from scratch thing.

Clay, what are you scheming up?

And actually, I use my horn for that very thing (on the trail).  We come to a stop and guys start to take off and I can honk and get their attention.  If I yell they never hear me.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 05:59:36 AM by cesllc »
2017 300SE Six Days with racing plastic
2017 300SEF Six Days
Southwestern Michigan

Bolt-On

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Re: Design a New Model
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2019, 08:32:49 AM »
Our GNCC sweep bikes are the TPI, and so far I've enjoyed that motor. However, I think for me it's been the convenience factor. Obviously we're on a time crunch at the GNCC events and there's times where I finish final sweep on the AM race and run straight to the start of the PM race to do the track description. It's nice to be able to have a premix tank that lasts a long while, and be able to just pump straight gas into the fuel tank. That's super specific to my usage, but that definitely crosses over to someone who would want to work towards plating a two-stroke.

I've never been keen on the whole "street legal two-stroke" thing, just due to the fact that I feel like its a pain to refuel. To me, the TPI thing changes that a lot. I've actually considered keeping my TPI sweep bike at the end of this season and trying to plate it just for the heck of it.

I think your list pretty well would build a pretty impressive machine but I guess my curiosity would be what CCs would be offered? If it was me designing up a whole new line, I think a 125, 200, 250 and 300 would be pretty good. The 200 market seems to have crashed as of late, but I've talked to some people who have mentioned that they would like to have a 200 again.
Jared Bolton
gnccracing.com

GlennE

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Re: Design a New Model
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2019, 09:14:38 AM »
Lets say you were going to design a brand new two stroke motorcycle for the US market. What are some of the things that you would want?  By this I mean a motorcycle that was built for you. The goal would be that when you got the bike that you did not have to buy or replace one damn thing to ride or race it. Here's a list of things I hear constantly:
E-start with back up kick start
6 speed
adjustable power valve
map switch that works (like on the Sherco)
choose your own gear ratios
stainless/plated exhaust
good skid plate that covers the linkage
spark arrestor
strong stator
lights that work
suspension sprung for you
lithium battery
seat height options
handlebars and grips that you want
KTM wheels (because so many KTM riders have spares)
good chain guide
Good tires for your area
O-ring chain
auto clutch option from factory
choice of hd tubes, mousses or Tubliss
Different size fuel tanks, or quickfill
HD radiators with a fan?
Rad guards
Rear disc guard



One of the biggest decisions would be TPI type or carb and here is where I get confused. Guys tell me they don't want a bike without back up ks because they do long rides and then they tell me they like the idea of TPI. To me that's a contradiction. TPI has more electrical parts that can break and you can't get the bike to run with 10 kick starters if they break. So what about a bike that came with an Lectron or Smartcarb?

Now keep something in mind: If a company produced this bike the weight would be higher than the comparable brands because it COMES WITH MORE STUFF!  I know you would think that everyone would figure this out but they don't. How do you market this?


And while I'm discussing this for the US I don't mean to exclude my friends from other countries. You all can chime in too!

Clay, I think you have almost everything covered

For me, I really considered an 18 or 19 Sherco 2T but they need to loose 20-25 lbs to be on par with KTM/Husqvarna.  I can accept a 5 lb ish weight penalty but 20+ is unacceptable.  While weight isn't everything, the lighter the better  We are approaching the older GasGas discrepency.  The 18+ Gasser is 10 lbs lighter than the Sherco.  I see the new TM is right there and the Beta isn't too far off.  To me the 2019 Factory or Cross Country model is right there with features.  Take 20 lbs off and I'm good. 

However, with a total redesign in a perfect world, adding the kicker would be fantastic. 

Summarizing for me:

Take 2019 250/300 Cross Country model (fan, MX tires, KYB)
- Remove 20ish pounds
- Add kicker
- A way to adjust the electronic power valve or go to mechanical to get the adjustment
- Lithium or some kind of lightweight battery


People rave about the counter balancer on the new KTMs so from a sales/marketing perspective, add it.  I personally don't care about it.  Not a deal breaker to me but there are a lot of cheer leaders for it.   

Offer two transmission gear sets.  Only difference being 1st gear or 1st and tighten the spread.  I personally think my 14 Sherco 300 geared down to 13/51 had the best gearing of any bike I've owned.  Low 1st and tight spread is perfect for me.  However, some people like taller, so make 1st taller more like the XC KTM on the XC version.  Make 6th taller like the KTM on both. 

Offer carb and throttle body injection.  There are people on both sides of the fence.  I personally have ridden a TPI and thought it ran fantastic and amazingly clean, but on the mellow side.  I personally chose a carb because the TPI reliability has been questionable at best.  I personally would also prefer to premix.  Use throttle body injection and pre mix saves some cost and complexity.  Keep offering the Keihin carb for those who don't want it. DI is expensive, complex and IMO snowmobiles have proved that its benefits are limited or non existent.

If you do switch to EFI, makes sure bike starts with no battery (to simulate a dead battery).  EFI KTMs do not start without a good battery!  Even with a kick or bump starting. 

I like Tubliss for trail riding however if I was racing I would probably run Mousses.   

2018 KTM 250 XC-W
(Sold)2014 Sherco SE-R 300, 12 GG 300, 11 300 XC, 09 CRF450R, 09 450 XCF, 00 RM 250, 95 YZ 250
Bozeman, Montana

Clay

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Re: Design a New Model
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2019, 11:21:46 AM »
Our GNCC sweep bikes are the TPI, and so far I've enjoyed that motor. However, I think for me it's been the convenience factor. Obviously we're on a time crunch at the GNCC events and there's times where I finish final sweep on the AM race and run straight to the start of the PM race to do the track description. It's nice to be able to have a premix tank that lasts a long while, and be able to just pump straight gas into the fuel tank. That's super specific to my usage, but that definitely crosses over to someone who would want to work towards plating a two-stroke.

I've never been keen on the whole "street legal two-stroke" thing, just due to the fact that I feel like its a pain to refuel. To me, the TPI thing changes that a lot. I've actually considered keeping my TPI sweep bike at the end of this season and trying to plate it just for the heck of it.

I think your list pretty well would build a pretty impressive machine but I guess my curiosity would be what CCs would be offered? If it was me designing up a whole new line, I think a 125, 200, 250 and 300 would be pretty good. The 200 market seems to have crashed as of late, but I've talked to some people who have mentioned that they would like to have a 200 again.
Good points Jared! So do you want TPI or oil injection? If it had an upgraded carb but had oil injection would that meet your convenience goal? And there would be a 200/250/300 two stroke line up.
Clay Stuckey
Sherco Offroad  www.shercooffroad.com
email: clay@shercooffroad.com
cell: 615 347 6519
Tennessee, USA

Iakovos1

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Re: Design a New Model
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2019, 11:41:34 AM »
Clay, not sure what your scheming up, but definitely interested to hear more about it!  I'll be purchasing over the upcoming winter for next years season.

Clay

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Re: Design a New Model
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2019, 11:49:03 AM »
Glenn you would be able to chose each gear ratio. There'd be a list of all the gear ratios for the current two stokes and you could pick your bike and say "I want to change this gear"  or "I really like my Beta gearbox so I want to exactly copy it", etc.
That's a good idea to offer TPI or injection or just carb. That may have to come later because I think it would delay things but that's a great goal to work towards.

Now the weight thing...….
I believe KTM has gone too light and that's why theyre having so many reported reliability issues. And if you had bigger radiators like the Mylers they would weigh more but they are super strong and hold like 25% more coolant. And all of those extra things that you guys are asking for adds weight. Bigger skid plate vs no plate on the KTM. Tugger strap vs no strap on the KTM. Add kicker vs no kicker. You can't have all of that and a 210 pound motorcycle! Maybe the bike could be weighed with exactly the same level of components as the KTM for an apple to apple comparison. Thoughts?

Another thing.... do you want a company to use existing parts? Everytime you ask a supplier to build something new you have development money that has to be spent or the supplier just says no. If the manufacturer used parts from other brands but with the changes listed above is that a positive or a negative. I hear this a lot "The number plate on the Sherco cross country models is the same as a Honda!" So? Is that a positive or a negative? I also hear this "I don't want to buy a Sherco because then I have to buy Sherco parts only! I can't get parts from aftermarket companies!" Again….so? Is that a positive or negative?
You'd all be really surprised how closely I listen to watch you tell me but sometimes you contradict yourselves or others!    ;) ;D ;D
Clay Stuckey
Sherco Offroad  www.shercooffroad.com
email: clay@shercooffroad.com
cell: 615 347 6519
Tennessee, USA

Bolt-On

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Re: Design a New Model
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2019, 11:53:05 AM »
Good points Jared! So do you want TPI or oil injection? If it had an upgraded carb but had oil injection would that meet your convenience goal? And there would be a 200/250/300 two stroke line up.

I think both are pretty convenient really and both have pros/cons. The TPI is nice as you don't really have to fool with adjusting idle, or jetting or anything like that. But, as you mentioned earlier there's a lot more electronics that can fail. The upgraded carb would be nice though because even though I just said you don't have to fool with idle or jetting, I also like being able to set that to where I like it. That also eliminates some of the electronics that could fail.

In my personal application, what that would truly boil down to is how long the oil tank will last. I've stayed on top of keeping the tank full, so I haven't exactly tested it yet but my understanding is the TPIs go somewhere around 5 full tanks of fuel. As long as the oil injected model would still last several tanks of fuel (even around 3 tanks seems like a reasonable amount to me) then I would likely be more intrigued by the oil injection.

While the TPI is pretty cool, I think good old-fashioned oil injection would keep a two-stroke more on the mark where people expect them to be. I feel like people expect two-strokes to be cheaper, more fun and more reliable. Adding in the TPI is a great feature in my book, but I'm not sure thats something that the ordinary everyday Average Joe rider or racer really needs. One more thing that can go wrong and one more thing that can be expensive, whereas I feel like an upgraded carb with oil injection would be a bit cheaper and less maintenance for a regular guy.

An American made, oil injected, 200 two-stroke that comes stock with some of the best goodies available already sounds like something that belongs in a museum!
Jared Bolton
gnccracing.com

Clay

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Re: Design a New Model
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2019, 11:58:21 AM »
Here's what I'm scheming: The Sherco trials distributor wants to buy me out and I'm thinking about letting him have it. I honestly believe that the Sherco is the best made off road motorcycle currently built but I believe I have gathered enough info from talking to guys like you all here and riding myself that I can build an even better motorcycle than the Sherco. If that happens I want to build an off road motorcycle here in the US that uses 90% US made parts and that is made to order Everyone of us has a box of take off parts from every motorcycle that we have bought! I want to make take off parts 99% obsolete.
Unfortunately I don't think it will be ready in 2019!   ;)
Clay Stuckey
Sherco Offroad  www.shercooffroad.com
email: clay@shercooffroad.com
cell: 615 347 6519
Tennessee, USA